Skip to main content



Child-Maltreatment-Research-L (CMRL) List Serve

Browse or Search All Past CMRL Messages

Welcome to the database of past Child-Maltreatment-Research-L (CMRL) list serve messages (10,000+). The table below contains all past CMRL messages (text only, no attachments) from Nov. 20, 1996 - June 11, 2018 and is updated quarterly.

Instructions: Postings are listed for browsing with the newest messages first. Click on the linked ID number to see a message. You can search the author, subject, message ID, and message content fields by entering your criteria into this search box:

Message ID: 8174
Date: 2009-05-27

Author:Mark Lynch

Subject:RE: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?

The need for research to identify effective practice is something that continues to be addressed, but there appears to be actual research done one effective measures for practice or training of practitioners. Many child "therapist" are not trained to specifically work with children and generalize treatment for adults to children, or underestimate the impact of some treatments on children.



Ken Little mentioned something in his e-mail that suggested that asking "Are Therapist Potentially dangerous? may be a problem in itself. While I am unsure of what this means exactly, I imagine there is harm when we depend on the trust of client for our treatment, and the question the potential danger publicly. I believe that these questions need to be discussed by individuals that treat children, but in a supportive and empowering way. Find what doesn't work, and get rid of it, and find what does work and use it. Sounds simple, but of course we know that it isn't.



Mark



Mark Lynch, Ph.D., MSW, LSW, BCD

Associate Professor

Director of Social Work

Director IM4Q Project

Co-Director of the Rural Center for Applied Social, Behavioral and Health Research

Saint Francis University

P.O. Box 600

Loretto, PA 15940

Phone: 814-472-3316

Fax: 814-472-2787

e-mail : mlynch@francis.edu



>>> "Ken Little" 5/26/2009 9:41 AM >>>

The things we "used to do" are the things we once "currently" did. Many of

today's best practices will become our errors to some future perspective.

There is nothing to sensationalize the things we currently do as all

approaches are based on our best "guesstimates" in this current moment.

Antibiotics and Teflon were once considered invaluable discoveries -- both

have considerable down-sides discovered well after the fact. In retrospect

... would either have been so fully embraced had the future be more

discernable?



As for personal and professional fallibilities, quirks, philosophies, etc.

you will find no human endeavor untouched by these things. Eradicating them

is as undesirable as it is desirable. Who decides which are good and which

are bad? Which group or authority chooses the narrow path for all to walk,

includes those who are able to walk it and excludes those who cannot or do

not adhere? Which philosophies are chosen as the acceptable ones, which as

the unacceptable ones? Since there is no known universal human philosophy or

truth that has existed throughout the ages -- which current and transient

philosophy or set of philosophies or proscribed practices are correct?



When do the personal issues of therapists enhance the richness of the

experience and outcome? When do they detract? When is the more precise

clinician less helpful and when is the more flawed clinician the precise

instrument of the time?



History is filled with examples of this topic run amok. Those deemed

"dangerous" have been burned at the stake, squashed under piles of stone,

gassed and hacked and hung; excluded, shunned, and banished; and most often

-- done so in error by some narrow group who thinks they have the best lead

on what is right and what is wrong.



The very question may be in some ways the most dangerous thing of all.



Ken



-----Original Message-----

From: bounce-3958023-6833746@list.cornell.edu

[mailto:bounce-3958023-6833746@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Toni Cavanagh

Johnson

Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 12:38 PM

To: Child Maltreatment Researchers

Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?



I echo Lisa's sentiments also. There is nothing to sensationalize

about the things we used to do. Yet, this is an important training

issue.



My thoughts run more to personal issues of therapists getting in the

way of therapy, e.g. philosophies, theories, money, politics, our

feelings, our needs, our desires, our longings, our biases, "un"

common sense, poor training in basic therapeutic interventions, etc.





Toni Cavanagh Johnson, Ph.D.

1101 Fremont Avenue, Suite 101

South Pasadena, California 91030

USA

Tel: 626-799-4522

FAX: 818-790-0139

toni@tcavjohn.com

www.tcavjohn.com









On May 23, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Faller, Kathleen wrote:



> Toni,

> I echo Lisa's sentiments. I would add that there is still much to be

> learned about evidence-based treatment and case-management in child

> sexual abuse and children with sexual behavior problems (I am

> assuming you are addressing practice in your area of expertise).

> Many of our colleagues have to treat complex cases where there is no

> evidence to guide them, or the evidence only addresses a small part

> of the problems that need to be addressed.

> Kathleen Coulborn Faller, Ph.D., A.C.S.W., L.M.S.W.

> Marion Elizabeth Blue Professor of Children and Families

> Director of the Family Assessment Clinic

> School of Social Work

> The University of Michigan

> 1080 S. University

> Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106

> 734 998 9700

>

> kcfaller@umich.edu

>

> The information contained in this message may be privileged and

> confidential and is intended only for the use of the named

> recipients. This communication is protected by federal law, both the

> Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) and 18

> United States Code Section 2511. If the reader of this message is

> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have

> received this in error and that any review, dissemination,

> distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If

> you have received this communication in error, please notify me

> immediately by phone (collect, if long distance) and destroy the

> message as you would confidential information

> ________________________________________

> From: bounce-3951502-6833631@list.cornell.edu

[bounce-3951502-6833631@list.cornell.edu

> ] On Behalf Of lfontes@rcn.com [lfontes@rcn.com]

> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:16 AM

> To: Child Maltreatment Researchers

> Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?

>

> This feels like a really delicate topic to me, and it would be

> CRUCIAL to distinguish between practices performed in the 80's and

> early 90's when we didn't really know what we were doing in

> therapies for abused children & adults, and what is being done now.

> I could see an appeal to sensationalize "bad therapy" based on

> practices which--one would hope--are no longer being used.

>

> TOni, I certainly hope you'll provide this context in terms of date

> & knowledge. I'm sure you will.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Lisa Fontes, Ph.D.

>

> ---- Original message ----

>> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:44:20 +0100

>> From: Peter Dale

>> Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?

>> To: "Child Maltreatment Researchers"


>> >

>>

>> Toni,

>> Your might like to dig out my 1999 book: Dale, P.

>> (1999) Adults Abused as Children. Experiences of

>> Counselling and Psychotherapy. London: Sage

>> publications

>> This reported my PhD research project in this area,

>> and includes some graphic examples of very damaging

>> 'therapeutic' practice with adults who were abused

>> as children.

>> Regards,

>> Peter

>> Dr Peter Dale & Associates Ltd

>> Independent social work, counselling, training,

>> research, expert witness services

>> Phone: (01424) 424504

>> Mobile: 07903 523 877

>> Email: info@peterdale.co.uk

>> Website: www.peterdale.co.uk

>> On 22 May 2009, at 01:47, Toni Cavanagh Johnson

>> wrote:

>>

>> I am preparing a talk and an article on

>> therapists. My thesis is: Are therapists

>> potentially

>> dangerous?

>>

>> I have examples from my own mistakes and those I

>> have seen with

>> others. Do any of you have concerns about the

>> efficacy of

>> therapists? Are you willing to share with me the

>> concerns? If I were

>> to use the example in a lecture or paper, it would

>> be anonymous.

>>

>> Toni

>> Toni Cavanagh Johnson, Ph.D.

>> 1101 Fremont Avenue, Suite 101

>> South Pasadena, California 91030

>> USA

>> Tel: 626-799-4522

>> FAX: 818-790-0139

>> toni@tcavjohn.com

>> www.tcavjohn.com











The need for research to identify effective practice is something that continues to be addressed, but there appears to be actual research done one effective measures for practice or training of practitioners. Many child "therapist" are not trained to specifically work with children and generalize treatment for adults to children, or underestimate the impact of some treatments on children.



Ken Little mentioned something in his e-mail that suggested that asking "Are Therapist Potentially dangerous? may be a problem in itself. While I am unsure of what this means exactly, I imagine there is harm when we depend on the trust of client for our treatment, and the question the potential danger publicly. I believe that these questions need to be discussed by individuals that treat children, but in a supportive and empowering way. Find what doesn't work, and get rid of it, and find what does work and use it. Sounds simple, but of course we know that it isn't.



Mark



Mark Lynch, Ph.D., MSW, LSW, BCD

Associate Professor

Director of Social Work

Director IM4Q Project

Co-Director of the Rural Center for Applied Social, Behavioral and Health Research

Saint Francis University

P.O. Box 600

Loretto, PA 15940

Phone: 814-472-3316

Fax: 814-472-2787

e-mail : mlynchfrancis.edu



>>> "Ken Little" 5/26/2009 9:41 AM >>>

The things we "used to do" are the things we once "currently" did. Many of

today's best practices will become our errors to some future perspective.

There is nothing to sensationalize the things we currently do as all

approaches are based on our best "guesstimates" in this current moment.

Antibiotics and Teflon were once considered invaluable discoveries -- both

have considerable down-sides discovered well after the fact. In retrospect

... would either have been so fully embraced had the future be more

discernable?



As for personal and professional fallibilities, quirks, philosophies, etc.

you will find no human endeavor untouched by these things. Eradicating them

is as undesirable as it is desirable. Who decides which are good and which

are bad? Which group or authority chooses the narrow path for all to walk,

includes those who are able to walk it and excludes those who cannot or do

not adhere? Which philosophies are chosen as the acceptable ones, which as

the unacceptable ones? Since there is no known universal human philosophy or

truth that has existed throughout the ages -- which current and transient

philosophy or set of philosophies or proscribed practices are correct?



When do the personal issues of therapists enhance the richness of the

experience and outcome? When do they detract? When is the more precise

clinician less helpful and when is the more flawed clinician the precise

instrument of the time?



History is filled with examples of this topic run amok. Those deemed

"dangerous" have been burned at the stake, squashed under piles of stone,

gassed and hacked and hung; excluded, shunned, and banished; and most often

-- done so in error by some narrow group who thinks they have the best lead

on what is right and what is wrong.



The very question may be in some ways the most dangerous thing of all.



Ken



-----Original Message-----

From: bounce-3958023-6833746list.cornell.edu

[mailto:bounce-3958023-6833746list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Toni Cavanagh

Johnson

Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 12:38 PM

To: Child Maltreatment Researchers

Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?



I echo Lisa's sentiments also. There is nothing to sensationalize

about the things we used to do. Yet, this is an important training

issue.



My thoughts run more to personal issues of therapists getting in the

way of therapy, e.g. philosophies, theories, money, politics, our

feelings, our needs, our desires, our longings, our biases, "un"

common sense, poor training in basic therapeutic interventions, etc.





Toni Cavanagh Johnson, Ph.D.

1101 Fremont Avenue, Suite 101

South Pasadena, California 91030

USA

Tel: 626-799-4522

FAX: 818-790-0139

tonitcavjohn.com

www.tcavjohn.com









On May 23, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Faller, Kathleen wrote:



> Toni,

> I echo Lisa's sentiments. I would add that there is still much to be

> learned about evidence-based treatment and case-management in child

> sexual abuse and children with sexual behavior problems (I am

> assuming you are addressing practice in your area of expertise).

> Many of our colleagues have to treat complex cases where there is no

> evidence to guide them, or the evidence only addresses a small part

> of the problems that need to be addressed.

> Kathleen Coulborn Faller, Ph.D., A.C.S.W., L.M.S.W.

> Marion Elizabeth Blue Professor of Children and Families

> Director of the Family Assessment Clinic

> School of Social Work

> The University of Michigan

> 1080 S. University

> Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106

> 734 998 9700

>

> kcfallerumich.edu

>

> The information contained in this message may be privileged and

> confidential and is intended only for the use of the named

> recipients. This communication is protected by federal law, both the

> Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) and 18

> United States Code Section 2511. If the reader of this message is

> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have

> received this in error and that any review, dissemination,

> distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If

> you have received this communication in error, please notify me

> immediately by phone (collect, if long distance) and destroy the

> message as you would confidential information

> ________________________________________

> From: bounce-3951502-6833631list.cornell.edu

[bounce-3951502-6833631list.cornell.edu

> ] On Behalf Of lfontesrcn.com [lfontesrcn.com]

> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:16 AM

> To: Child Maltreatment Researchers

> Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?

>

> This feels like a really delicate topic to me, and it would be

> CRUCIAL to distinguish between practices performed in the 80's and

> early 90's when we didn't really know what we were doing in

> therapies for abused children & adults, and what is being done now.

> I could see an appeal to sensationalize "bad therapy" based on

> practices which--one would hope--are no longer being used.

>

> TOni, I certainly hope you'll provide this context in terms of date

> & knowledge. I'm sure you will.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Lisa Fontes, Ph.D.

>

> ---- Original message ----

>> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:44:20 +0100

>> From: Peter Dale

>> Subject: Re: Are Therapists Potentially Dangerous?

>> To: "Child Maltreatment Researchers"


>> >

>>

>> Toni,

>> Your might like to dig out my 1999 book: Dale, P.

>> (1999) Adults Abused as Children. Experiences of

>> Counselling and Psychotherapy. London: Sage

>> publications

>> This reported my PhD research project in this area,

>> and includes some graphic examples of very damaging

>> 'therapeutic' practice with adults who were abused

>> as children.

>> Regards,

>> Peter

>> Dr Peter Dale & Associates Ltd

>> Independent social work, counselling, training,

>> research, expert witness services

>> Phone: (01424) 424504

>> Mobile: 07903 523 877

>> Email: infopeterdale.co.uk

>> Website: www.peterdale.co.uk

>> On 22 May 2009, at 01:47, Toni Cavanagh Johnson

>> wrote:

>>

>> I am preparing a talk and an article on

>> therapists. My thesis is: Are therapists

>> potentially

>> dangerous?

>>

>> I have examples from my own mistakes and those I

>> have seen with

>> others. Do any of you have concerns about the

>> efficacy of

>> therapists? Are you willing to share with me the

>> concerns? If I were

>> to use the example in a lecture or paper, it would

>> be anonymous.

>>

>> Toni

>> Toni Cavanagh Johnson, Ph.D.

>> 1101 Fremont Avenue, Suite 101

>> South Pasadena, California 91030

>> USA

>> Tel: 626-799-4522

>> FAX: 818-790-0139

>> tonitcavjohn.com

>> www.tcavjohn.com