Re: Suicide Ideation - time to change the subject line

["0:]" <pohaku.kane@xxxxxxxxx>]

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Todd McDonald wrote:
> I think the subject line of this email is misleading.  I couldn't find 
> anything on the website about suicide or suicide ideation.  I also found 
> nothing about encouraging children to end their time on planet earth.  
> Personally I don't believe in the Rapture, but I also don't believe 
> folks should be misrepresenting the religious beliefs of others, and 
> somehow connecting visions of heaven with child maltreatment.
>  
> Todd McDonald

How would there be a misrepresentation? People are being quoted, we 
presume honestly as is possible. And while "loathing" may be a strong 
term to use, the situation does in fact exist in some religions. 
Christianity is not alone in this. (Reference The Rapture).

The point of the thread, it's question in fact, did not have to do with 
legitimacy of a belief, but if there was any data or study material on 
how this plays out in children's suicide or attempts at suicide with CPS 
currently.

It is as valid a question as one would be on Faith Healing and child 
deaths or injuries resulting as pertains to child protection issues.

Unless I missed it no one is misrepresenting anything, simply asking 
questions.

If it turns out there is anything statistically significant from 
studies,  or from results of surveys, etc. that show some connection, we 
have a valid question. If it turns out there is nothing, that is just as 
good a result and validates the actual question.  Science demands we 
examine everything that comes to question. Not make political and 
religious boundaries that cannot be crossed by legitimate researchers.

In this partial quote (the rest is at the end of this post in attributed 
form, note the last line:

">         Since such "loathing of earthly life" is a part of several
 >         belief systems, does anyone on this list have input --
 >         historical or contemporary -- that casts any light on the "risk"
 >         attached to the belief?  How do CPS systems respond to reports
 >         of this kind?
 >
 >         There is an additional dimension to this phenomenon.  The
 >         "Discussion Forum" is "anonymous" so the concern is that
 >         anonymity is a dangerous cloak for possible harm.  Any
 >         experience on this aspect?

In addition some excellent argument is offered in this thread, given 
that yes, people who are not mentally competent have been known to 
encapsulate in religion as one form of expressing their dementia. And on 
line discussion forums have become a hotbed of cooperative support for 
delusional views of the world by folks that show considerable lack of 
self control and social development, or the loss of it.

A case in Oregon is currently underway on the death of a child via faith 
healing beliefs of her parents. She had, according to health 
professionals, a treatable infection. Untreated, it killed her. The 
parents claim they used faith healing and thus are protected from 
charges. The sides are already lining up, for and against them.

If the question here now under consideration was formed around a cult 
belief system, or say a less popular religion than Christianity might be 
in our respective countries, would we wish to back off, when children's 
safety is the end game?

The legitimacy of a belief system is NOT proof that it cannot be misused.

But then I reveal my bias. I do not hold with faith healing as it 
applies to children, who have no say in the matter. Such matters of 
morals will always be a factor in social science research.

Bringing this back to the point: what do we know about this particular 
aspect -- the inculcation of a death wish in small children by way of 
articles of religious faith? Has child protection had many of these and 
how do they deal with them?

Religion is as subject to examination by science as any other aspect of 
our existence.

Kane

> 
> 
> */Sheri McMahon <dfmcmahon1@msn.com>/* wrote:
> 
>     Once again, I think these things have to be viewed in context. There
>     have been folks believing in the Rapture forever, and a heck of a
>     lot more since the Tim LaHaye series ("Left Behind") was published.
>     Incidentally, more than a few are "called" to be foster parents, ok?
>     Rapture theology, however, says God decides when it is time to be
>     lifted up. Helps having the link, I thought there might be something
>     really strange afoot.
>      
>     I'd focus more on, hm, making sure mental health needs of parents
>     and children are met. People with acute mental illness /may/
>     incorporate religious beliefs into their actions, and how many
>     parents really do believe--in the throes of such illnesses and/or
>     under extreme stress--that they are doing their children a favor by
>     sending them back to God (not to mention those with notions that
>     killing their children prevents them from enduring the suffering of
>     the parent's suicide, ever having to be with the estranged partner
>     again, coping with the looming bankruptcy or prison). Focusing on
>     the religious beliefs per se is simply going to drive those whose
>     religious beliefs are regarded as marginal further into the fringes
>     (Hello, Eldorado).
>      
>     Notions about heaven being more desirable than earth have been
>     around as long as notions of heaven and earth have been, and there
>     is probably no way to teach about an afterlife with God without
>     raising at least the theological possibility that one should hurry
>     it up, (questions asks by precocious children and brooding
>     teenagers) but I honestly do not see general relevance to child
>     protection.
>      
>     I was thinking this has no general relevance to child
>     protection--but it does. Cultural competence is not just about
>     coping with Roma refugees from eastern Europe or Sioux religions or
>     African-American child-rearing practices, it is about recogizing how
>     deeply culture (including religious beliefs) are woven into
>     everyone's lives, including one's own.
>      
>     Sheri McMahon
>      Original Message -----
> 
>         *From:* Tom Hanna <mailto:tph3@cornell.edu>
>         *To:* Child Maltreatment Researchers
>         <mailto:child-maltreatment-research-l@list.cornell.edu>
>         *Sent:* Saturday, April 19, 2008 6:16 AM
>         *Subject:* Suicide Ideation: "Going home to god" - Part 2
> 
>         My original correspondent gave me this link.  I would emphasize,
>         however, that this is not a phenomenon limited only to one
>         faith, and I am hoping to hear more discussion on the *general*
>         concern.
> 
>         http://rr-bb.com/
> 
>         I quote from my correspondent with her permission.  The original
>         post she found said this:
> 
>         "And I know there has to be something to this. My daughter is
>         almost five, and even at her tender age, she is already
>         'world-weary'. Of course, she's five, so she loves her toys and
>         her bike. But she loves Jesus more than anything, and she asked
>         me the same thing..."Are we going to Heaven to be with Jesus
>         soon because this life is really hard and it's taking too long.
>         (smiley face) Out of the mouths of babes..."
> 
>         I looked a little further into this member, and it appears as
>         though this person is a teacher. 
> 
>         Found at this link:
>         http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=37576&page=2
>         <http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=37576&page=2>
> 
>         Going to any thread in this website is enough to make me worry
>         about all of these people, but I'm less inclined to be concerned
>         about the adults, who have a choice in their religion.
>         Thanks again for your help."
> 
>         End of quoted text from private communication.
> 
>         --Tom
> 
>         Original post by Tom Hanna:
>         --
>         I have recently been contacted by someone deeply concerned about
>         an Internet Forum where parents seem to be training their
>         children to reject this life in order to go home to their Maker.
> 
>         The concern expressed is that the parents are encouraging
>         suicidal ideation, and that this will play itself out in action.
>         Parents brag to each other when their 5-yo children say they are
>         tired of living and want their Maker to come and take them away
>         (In the case involved, I have provided the concerned person with
>         links to http://ncmec.org and http://childhelp.org
>         1-800-4-A-CHILD so they can get some direct feedback.)
> 
>         Since such "loathing of earthly life" is a part of several
>         belief systems, does anyone on this list have input --
>         historical or contemporary -- that casts any light on the "risk"
>         attached to the belief?  How do CPS systems respond to reports
>         of this kind?
> 
>         There is an additional dimension to this phenomenon.  The
>         "Discussion Forum" is "anonymous" so the concern is that
>         anonymity is a dangerous cloak for possible harm.  Any
>         experience on this aspect?
> 
>         Is there a National Suicide Prevention hotline that might have
>         already had to deal with this concern?
> 
>         --TIA
>         --Tom
> 
> 
>         --
>         --
>         Tom Hanna, Director
>         Child Abuse Prevention Network
>         www.child-abuse.com
>         tom@child-abuse.com
>         tph3@cornell.edu
>         off 607.275.9360
>         cel 607.227.4524
>         fax: 415.962.0510
>         --
> 
> 
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