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Re: foster care and childbirth



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<DIV>You say much I agree with.&nbsp; I am not interested in any grand law of 
early child-bearing among foster children or former foster children.&nbsp; I am 
interested in dealing with the here and now:&nbsp; the children we deal with in 
California, and the cultural groups they come from.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The fact is that the age of first marriage for young men in the U.S. is now 
up to 27, and for women, 25 to 26, the highest it has been since the Great 
Depression.&nbsp; There are significant economic reasons for this change, 
which&nbsp;adversely affects the ability of young people to set up an 
independent economic unit. in order to marry, the northwestern European cultural 
norm Wally Seccombe describes eloquently.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is not to say that they do not have sex before then, but most of that 
sexual activity is without issue.&nbsp; Therefore, unprotected sex WITH issue is 
not the rule for young people.&nbsp; Folks who do that are doing something 
outside the broader U.S. norm.&nbsp; There are likely to be reasons for that, 
and U.S. research indicates that many of these reasons&nbsp;include 
&nbsp;purposeful pregnancies.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Since I work for a social services agency with actual clients, and do not 
engage exclusively in academic "research" we have the opportunity to gather 
qualitative information from our clients, who often remain in our community past 
the time we have them in the court's charge.&nbsp; Nothing I have said 
contradicts our experience in that area, either.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The teen pregnancy "issue" in my county is&nbsp;almost exclusively 
amongHispanic children, who are also the largest group in foster care, although 
Hispanic children in general are underrepresented in foster care, we assume, 
because of the robustly healthy effects of their extended family supports.&nbsp; 
For non-Hispanic teens who become pregnant, the father is always Hispanic.&nbsp; 
Although other teens in other ethnic groups engage in sexual activity also, the 
males are more likely to insist on protection from pregnancy (and a possible 
paternity levy), and the females are more likely also to protect 
themselves.&nbsp; The "machismo" ethic among many&nbsp; young Hispanic males 
disparages the use of any form of birth control by men, and discourages young 
men from encouraging young women to use preventive means, too.&nbsp; The 
implicit goal of sexual activity is , therefore, procreation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This information has been discussed in a culturally respectful manner 
before largely Hispanic forums in our community, without objection or 
disagreement by Hispanic community leaders.&nbsp; My former job was as civil 
rights director for my county, by the way, and I have been a member of many of 
our ethnic advocacy groups, both here and elsewhere in the United States.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My thoughts come from a California perspective.&nbsp; Nobody said that the 
motivation to give birth has ANYTHING to do with exploiting anybody's social 
welfare system - - the thought never occurred to me in writing my earlier 
message, although I know some conservative politicians have believed it to be 
so.&nbsp; Our current welfare payments, by the way, are pegged at 62% of the 
poverty level and dropping.&nbsp; Not a good standard of living to aim for under 
any circumstances.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I think it is fair to assume that even self-injurious behavior has some 
motivation other than suicidallity.&nbsp; My context is that most human behavior 
is purposeful, even if not within conscious awareness at all times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>My work with developmentally disabled young people confirms that 
view.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Freya Schultz</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>**Notice of Privacy**<BR>This information is private and confidential and 
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Freya Schultz<BR>Staff Analyst<BR>Santa Barbara County Social 
Services<BR>234 Camino del Remedio<BR>Santa Barbara, CA 93110<BR>Voice (805) 
681-4626 <BR>FAX (805) 681-4403<BR>&lt;<A 
href="mailto:freya@co.santa-barbara.ca.us";>freya@co.santa-barbara.ca.us</A>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; jadynne@tpg.com.au 08/26/03 05:23PM &gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>I 
similarly find this debate extremely interesting - however there are some 
difficulties in comparing people's experiences across jurisdictions and 
internationally. </DIV>
<P>For starters, people enter care for different reasons in different places. A 
person's reason for entering into care, relating predominately to their early 
life experience can be instrumental in determining subsequent life experiences, 
attachments and social relationships. The proportions of people entering care 
vary substantially within countries, and also internationally. Within Australia 
different states have varying rates of admission for sexual, physical and 
emotional abuse, neglect and carer incarceration - and I understand a similar 
situation applies in the US. Furthermore, their are marked international 
contrasts. For example, many more young people enter care in the US for drug 
related reasons, particularly prenatal harm than occurs in Australia. &gt;From 
examining the statistics, it would also appear that a greater proportion of the 
population in the US ends up in care than in other countries, where it seems 
generic social services help buffer and support parents at risk. 
<P>To get back to the topic of conversation, there are many reasons why people 
have children, and many reasons why young people in care have children. Whilst I 
accept that there may be a myriad of unconscious psychological motivations that 
contribute to a young person wanting a child, I tend to have found that people 
are largely unaware of these. In my experiences (which certainly aren't 
necessarily appropriate to generalise worldwide) young people who are or have 
been in care have children at young ages because they extensively engage in self 
harm and risk taking activities. We know that young people in care are more 
likely to use outpatient mental health services, we know that young people in 
care are less likely to finish school, and are less likely to achieve grades 
that are of a comparable standard to their peers. We know young people in care 
have greater rates of hospital admissions than other young people, have a 
greater rate of homelessness, and at least anecdotally, have a greater incidence 
of self harm and substance abuse. 
<P>Ultimately, these patterns are not at all dissimilar from the experiences of 
other young people at risk - with the exception that in the case of young people 
in care the state has been mandated to be their guardian, and to ensure their 
ongoing well-being. 
<P>From my perspective early pregnancy, whilst in care or just after leaving 
care is a product of engaging in self-harming and at-risk activities. Substance 
abuse coupled with unprotected intercourse or teen prostitution or its 
equivalent come to mind. I'm not arguing that some of the grander psychological 
motivations do not come in to play at some stage, but I would argue that this 
occurs much later in a young person's life - when they're in their mid twenties 
as opposed to mid teens. 
<P>I take strong issue with the second notion that young people in care, or who 
have left care engage in intercourse or have children to achieve the aim of: 
<P>"wanting somebody else to take care of you and assuming this will happen if 
you give birth to a child with one or more men, regardless of whether a stable 
relationship with a young man with the MEANS to support a young family exists" 
<P>Suggesting that young people in care, or anyone for that matter gives birth 
to exploit an already grossly under-funded, under-resourced and distressed 
social welfare system in many Western countries I feel is too marked a stretch 
in logic. 
<P>Anyway, these are my thoughts, mostly coming from an Australian perspective - 
perhaps care is so markedly different in the US that similar situations don't 
apply. 
<P>Cheers. 
<P>Jadynne Harvey 
<P>"Dixon, Donna M." wrote: 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE">&nbsp;<SPAN class=220395815-26082003><FONT 
  face="Microsoft Sans Serif">I find your assumptions interesting. I haven't 
  heard the reasons for high teen pregnancy rates among girls in the foster care 
  system articulated in this way. Do you have any publications that expound on 
  your ideas and/or any suggestions for how to question/measure if these are 
  present prior to pregnancy??</FONT></SPAN><SPAN 
  class=220395815-26082003></SPAN><SPAN class=220395815-26082003> 
  <P><FONT face="Palace Script MT"><FONT size=+1>Donna Dixon, RN, 
  MS</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>Center on Adolescent Sexuality, 
  Pregnancy and Parenting</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>Department of Human 
  Development &amp; Family Studies</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>University of 
  Missouri</FONT> <BR><SPAN class=220395815-26082003><FONT face=Arial>314</SPAN> 
  Gentry Hall</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>Columbia, MO 65211</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face=Arial>(573) 882-6687</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>(573) 884=4878</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000><A 
  href="mailto:dixondm@missouri.edu";>dixondm@missouri.edu</A></FONT></FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000><A 
  href="http://outreach.missouri.edu/hdfs/mvrm.htm"; 
  target=_blank>http://outreach.missouri.edu/hdfs/mvrm.htm</A></FONT></FONT> 
  <BR></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original 
    Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Freya Schultz [<A 
    href="mailto:freya@co.santa-barbara.ca.us";>mailto:freya@co.santa-barbara.ca.us</A>]</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT face=Tahoma><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 25, 2003 2:13 PM</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT face=Tahoma><B>To:</B> Child Maltreatment Researchers</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT face=Tahoma><B>Subject:</B> Re: foster care and childbirth</FONT> 
    <BR>&nbsp;</DIV>I wonder if people have any research with outcomes 
    differentiated by the degree of permancy and the length of permant placement 
    (age at last permanent placement).&nbsp; The issue I would be interested in 
    seeing would be to distinguish the effects of the PLACEMENT situation the 
    child experienced from the effects of the birth family situation.&nbsp; In 
    either event, we can assume, I think, that early child-bearing is associated 
    with:&nbsp;&nbsp;1) a desire to CREATE a family to love and be loved when 
    one has had less lifelong committed relationship experience as a child 
    (<U>related to narcissistic injury and emotional developmental delays which 
    have not been adequately remediated</U>), and /or&nbsp;2) <U>a failure to 
    prepare adequately</U> (among girls in particular)&nbsp; <U>for lifelong 
    self-sufficiency</U>&nbsp; (school attainment/vocational preparation) 
    related to inferior educational outcomes often experienced by children 
    passing through the foster care system.&nbsp; In other words, a form of 
    wanting somebody else to take care of you and assuming this will happen if 
    you give birth to a child with one or more men, regardless of whether a 
    stable relationship with a young man with the MEANS to support a young 
    family exists.&nbsp;Just assuming greater and earlier permanent placement 
    would remediate things BY THEMSELVES, I think, assumes too much effect for 
    this one parameter.&nbsp;In much of the U.S., it takes TWO working parents 
    to support even two children adequately, or a single woman with at least a 
    college education and work experience and two or fewer children to 
    support.&nbsp; Children without adequate economic preparation for adulthood 
    will not just automatically KNOW this and if not prepared explicitly for 
    this life challenge, will not meet it adequately, or will refuse to meet it 
    (it counters their immediate family's values).&nbsp;This is particularly 
    true for subcultural groups who come from an extended family model, in which 
    setting up an independent economic household unit BEFORE commencing 
    child-bearing is not an explicit ( or implicit) cultural goal - it may even 
    be considered dangerous for extended family cohesion.&nbsp;Hence, the 
    failure to do so is higher in some groups than others, for "cultural" 
    reasons, independent of whether a child has EVER been in foster 
    care.&nbsp;The Canadian sociologist Wally Seccombe (in&nbsp; A Millenium of 
    Family Change) makes this case very convincingly for Western European 
    societies in history, and by extension, for other family-type preference 
    groups.&nbsp;Freya Kaniuokalani Schultz (demographer/anthropologist)and 
    person of mixed race (ethnic Hawaiian, etc. - for whom these conflicts 
    remain a salient cultural issue) 
    <P>&gt;&gt;&gt; jadynne@tpg.com.au 08/24/03 04:21PM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>Hello 
    Mark, 
    <P>It sounds like you're doing some excellent and interesting work. 
    Similarly, I <BR>presently am examining various life outcomes for people 
    18-30 who have left the <BR>care system within Australia. Loosely speaking, 
    the majority of people who have <BR>had children have done so early, 
    oftentimes whilst still in care, or just after <BR>leaving care, with the 
    age range between about 15 and 23. Certainly there are <BR>some people in my 
    participant group who have had children at older ages, but the <BR>majority 
    if they have had children have had them quite young. 
    <P>I'm finishing off sampling at the moment, but can send you through some 
    findings <BR>when I get that together. 
    <P>Best of luck with your research. 
    <P>Jadynne Harvey 
    <P>"Mark F. Schmitz" wrote: 
    <P>&gt; Hello all, <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm working on some analyses that look 
    at various adulthood outcomes of <BR>&gt; foster care. Right now, I'm 
    looking at the rate of childbirth for young <BR>&gt; adults (21-30 years 
    old) who were raised in the foster care system at some <BR>&gt; time in 
    their childhood or adolescence. Does anybody know of any research <BR>&gt; 
    that has examined this issue? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks, <BR>&gt; Mark 
    Schmitz <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ********************************************* 
    <BR>&gt; Mark F. Schmitz, Ph.D. <BR>&gt; School of Social Work <BR>&gt; 
    Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey <BR>&gt; 536 George Street 
    <BR>&gt; New Brunswick, NJ 08901 <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; email: <U><A 
    href="mailto:mschmitz@rci.rutgers.edu";>mschmitz@rci.rutgers.edu</A></U> 
    <BR><U>&gt; phone: (732) 932-3550</U> <BR><U>&gt; fax: (732) 932-8181</U> 
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    <P><U>--</U> <BR><U>Jadynne Harvey</U> <BR><U><A href="http://Ph.D.";>Ph.D. 
    </A>Candidate</U> <BR><U>Department of Psychology</U> <BR><U>ADELAIDE 
    UNIVERSITY SA 5005</U> <BR><U>AUSTRALIA</U> <BR>&nbsp; 
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<BR>&nbsp; ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005 <BR>&nbsp; AUSTRALIA <BR>&nbsp; 
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