supporting vicarious CPS social workers

[אוניברסיטה <yutas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Yes, bias is always a problem to be contended with.  That much is evident from your post and probably from mine as well.  So, given the inevitability of bias, what meaning do you suggest we impart to "unpopular" data like Rind's?   If measures of self esteem and positive sexual identity are vulnerable and time and social factors skew perceptions of our childhood  and you and I are biased, what's left?  A kind of nihilism?

 

I think John Price's comments regarding sibling incest were simply saying that people's reports of their personal experiences are worth something.  Why is it so difficult listen to and consider such reports without immediately bringing up our (own) "concerns?"  We appear willing enough to give credibility to victims when they tell us how they suffered or how damaged they are.  Why are we less willing to listen to people who report a different sort of child-adult sexual experience?  Rind's study, while interesting is hardly novel.  Kilpatrick had similar retrospective data from women 15 years earlier.  (Kilpatrick, A.C., Some correlates of women's childhood sexual experiences: A retrospective study. Journal of Sex Research, 1986. 22(2): p. 221-242.)  Adult child sexual encounters are NOT necessarily harmful, especially when they occur after onset of puberty.) 

And then there are the (in)famous Rind/Tromovitch 1997 and 1998 meta-analyses.  Good science, bad politics. 

Why must we be so quickly concerned over the mere possibility that sexual relations between adult and legal minors are (sometimes) without harmful effects?  What if that's really so?  What if, in spite of all the potential biases inherent in most research, this were really so?  What would that mean to us as researchers?  As clinicians?  As citizens?  As parents?  As sexual beings?

***************************************************************************
 Ron Kokish at Delson-Kokish Associates, P.O. Box 476, Trinidad, CA 95570
        Clinical and Forensic Evaluations, Consultation & Training
                 (707)677-3181-voice   (707)677-0187-fax
             ron@xxxxxxxxx-email     www.northcoast.com/~dka
***************************************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@xxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Strathearn, Lane
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 6:04 AM
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers
Subject: RE: sibling incest and consent

Although I am not overly-conversant with the literature in this area, I am concerned about the inference that sexual relations between adult and adolescent males are without harmful effects, regardless of the "consensual" nature of the relationship. We are all aware of the inherent biases associated with retrospective studies, and the multitude of social factors that can impact on a person's perception of childhood events. Measures of self-esteem and positive sexual identity in a gay and bisexual population would seem to be particularly vulnerable to bias. 

============================================
Dr Lane Strathearn
Fellow in Neurodevelopmental Pediatrics
Department of Pediatrics, Baylor College of Medicine
Meyer Center for Developmental Pediatrics
Texas Children's Hospital
MC 3-2335
Houston, Texas. 77030-2399
Ph: 832 824 3422; Fax: 832 825 3399
Email: lxstrath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Kokish [mailto:ron@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:29 AM
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers
Subject: RE: sibling incest and consent

Indeed, it may be wise to take the "victim's" word for it in "sexual abuse" cases other than just sibling incest.  Victim advocates typically and rightfully urge us to "listen to victims."  I agree, even when it disturbs our own view of things.  For example:

 

Rind, Bruce Gay and bisexual adolescent boys' sexual experiences with men: An empirical examination of psychological correlates in a nonclinical sample. . Archives of Sexual Behavior. Kluwer Academic/ Plenum Publishers: US, 2001 Aug. 30 (4): p. 345-368 Language: English.  Pub type: Empirical Study

Abstract: Over the last quarter century the incest model, with its image of helpless victims exploited and traumatized by powerful perpetrators, has come to dominate perceptions of virtually all forms of adult-minor sex. Thus, even willing sexual relations between gay or bisexual adolescent boys and adult men, which differ from father-daughter incest in many important ways, are generally seen by the lay public and professionals as traumatizing and psychologically injurious. This study assessed this common perception by examining a nonclinical, mostly college sample of gay and bisexual men. Of the 129 men (aged 17-25 yrs) in the study, 26 were identified as having had age-discrepant sexual relations (ADSRs) as adolescents between 12 and 17 yrs of age with adult males. Men with ADSR experiences were as well adjusted as controls in terms of self-esteem and having achieved a positive sexual identity. Reactions to the ADSRs were predominantly positive, and most ADSRs were willingly engaged in. Younger adolescents were just as willing and reacted at least as positively as older adolescents. Data on sexual identity development indicated that ADSRs played no role in creating same-sex sexual interests, contrary to the "seduction" hypothesis. Findings were inconsistent with the incest model.

 

***************************************************************************
 Ron Kokish at Delson-Kokish Associates, P.O. Box 476, Trinidad, CA 95570
        Clinical and Forensic Evaluations, Consultation & Training
                 (707)677-3181-voice   (707)677-0187-fax
             ron@xxxxxxxxx-email     www.northcoast.com/~dka
***************************************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@xxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Tom Oellerich
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 2:11 PM
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers
Subject: RE: sibling incest and consent

For legal purposes perhaps.  But otherwise why - why can we not take the person's word that it was voluntary?  Age differences are irrelevant - see Kilpatrick, A. 1992) Long-range effects of child and adolescent sexual experiences: Myths, mores and menaces.

At 05:49 PM 12/27/2001 -0700, you wrote:

I would never consider small age differences the only criteria for deciding if an act was consensual. Given the way you report this girl described the encounters they were clearly not consensual. But I do think that with children very close in age whether it was consensual or not needs to be specifically considered whereas when there is a large age difference, even if the victim-child states it was voluntary we return to the issue of whether children can give 'informed consent' to sexual encounters.

Christina Risley-Curtiss, MSSW, PhD
Associate Professor & Co-Director, Child Welfare Training Project
Arizona State University
School of Social Work
Tempe, AZ 85287-1802
480-965-6076
Fax: 480-965-5986


-----Original Message-----
From: lisa fontes [mailto:lfontes@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 5:12 PM
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers
Subject: Re: sibling incest and consent

Even the seemingly "neat" categories supplied by Jennifer Guimond below are
messy. I remember a student disclosing to me tearfully after a university
class on child sexual abuse that her brother--who was less than 2 years
older--had dragged her off to his room IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS "for a good
tickling" repeatedly over the years. She had tried to disclose to her
parents who hadn't believed her. he was (and remains) the preferred son--on
his way to medical school, while she was (and remains) the troubled younger
sister. She was quite distressed to learn that their relations would be
considered "consensual" because of their relatively small age difference.
She did not feel they were consensual at all. I guess there are many ways in
which a sibling can have power over another--and many would not be
discovered in a typical quantiative research study.

Jennifer Guimond wrote:

> The consent issue in sibling incest can be pretty fuzzy when the
> siblings in question are close in age and no obvious coercion is
> present.  My reading of the literature suggests that sexual contact
> between siblings can be classified in three ways:
>
> 1.  age-appropriate sexual play and exploration by children of similar
> age.
> 2.  sexual abuse in which one child clearly has more power than the
> other due to age, status in the family, physical strength, etc.
> 3.  consensual age-inappropriate sexual contact such as an 11-year-old
> and 12-year-old having consensual sexual intercourse.
>
> The first two scenarios have been studied, but the third scenario is
> less understood.  The third scenario involves sexual contact that is not
> age-appropriate exploration but is also not coercive.  When researchers
> study sexual abuse, they use a 5 year age difference between the victim
> and the perpetrator as a criteria for sexual abuse.  Thus, many cases of
> sibling incest (as well as incest with cousins) may be overlooked.
>
> I find the topic fascinating and I would love to exchange e-mail and
> share references with anyone else on the list.
>
> Jennifer Guimond

>From ???@??? Mon Jan 07 11:02:50 2002
Status: U
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Strathearn, Lane"
To: "Child Maltreatment Researchers"

Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: sibling incest and consent


>Although I am not overly-conversant with the literature in this
>area, I am concerned about the inference that sexual relations
>between adult and adolescent males are without harmful effects,
>regardless of the "consensual" nature of the relationship.

This is confusing. Did you mean to say that an inference can be drawn
this way: "without regard to consent, male adult-adolescent sexual
relations are harmless?"

Or did you mean to take issue with an inference drawn this way:
"consenting sexual relations between adult-adolescent males are without
harmful effects"?

Please clarify. What exactly are your concerns -- with 'consent' or with
lack of harm being inferred for some activities judged immoral?

One might ask, how can we prevent even incorrect inferences being drawn
from any study of sexual behaviour?


>We are all aware of the inherent biases associated with
>retrospective studies, and the multitude of social factors that
>can impact on a person's perception of childhood events.

Does this presume, in your opinion, that perceptions of childhood events
are biased *in one direction*? -- i.e., that biases and social factors
tend to add a negative gloss to current perceptions? And I would ask you
why you have reframed the terms: why have 'gay and bisexual adolescents'
become 'children'? The subjects interviewed in the Savin-Williams study
range in age from 17-23 years of age, you will have noted.

>Measures of self-esteem and positive sexual identity in a gay
>and bisexual population would seem to be particularly
>vulnerable to bias.

I would ask, bias in which direction? If you are contending that gay
and bisexual adolescents and young men tend to *inflate* self-reported
measures of self-esteem and positive sexual identity, or that they tend
to *decrease* these measures?

Do you have any findings to support either of these contentions? Why
would gay and bisexual populations seem to be subject to a "particular"
bias one way or another?

I ask this because the first contention seems to lack face validity --
if gay and bisexual teens tend to inflate measures of positive sexual
identity, how would this contention jibe with social efforts to *raise*
gay teens' self-esteen, and with their reported feelings of social
exclusion, discrimination and isolation? How would this contention jibe
with efforts to provide gay teens with remedies for elevated levels of
suicidality and depression? How would this jibe with high-school denials
and disavowals of this "positive" orientation?

To put a sharper point to my questions: Do gay teens lie about how great
it is to be gay (or bisexual)? Do they tend to lie about how solid and
rewarding is their awareness of this orientation?

Please show us some data on gay adolescents which would show evidence
of this bias toward "positive sexual identity"?




> ============================================
> Dr Lane Strathearn
> Fellow in Neurodevelopmental Pediatrics
> Department of Pediatrics, Baylor College of Medicine
> Meyer Center for Developmental Pediatrics
> Texas Children's Hospital
> MC 3-2335
> Houston, Texas. 77030-2399
> Ph: 832 824 3422; Fax: 832 825 3399
> Email: lxstrath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx