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RE: sibling incest and consent
<x-html><html>
For legal purposes perhaps. But otherwise why - why can we not take
the person's word that it was voluntary? Age differences are
irrelevant - see Kilpatrick, A. 1992) Long-range effects of child and
adolescent sexual experiences: Myths, mores and menaces.<br>
<br>
At 05:49 PM 12/27/2001 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<font size=2><blockquote type=cite cite>I would never consider small age
differences the only criteria for deciding if an act was consensual.
Given the way you report this girl described the encounters they were
clearly not consensual. But I do think that with children very close in
age whether it was consensual or not needs to be specifically considered
whereas when there is a large age difference, even if the victim-child
states it was voluntary we return to the issue of whether children can
give 'informed consent' to sexual encounters.<br>
</font><br>
Christina Risley-Curtiss, MSSW, PhD <br>
<font size=2>Associate Professor & Co-Director, Child Welfare
Training Project</font> <br>
<font size=2>Arizona State University</font> <br>
<font size=2>School of Social Work</font> <br>
<font size=2>Tempe, AZ 85287-1802</font> <br>
<font size=2>480-965-6076</font> <br>
<font size=2>Fax: 480-965-5986</font> <br>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2>-----Original Message-----</font> <br>
<font size=2>From: lisa fontes
[<a href="mailto:lfontes@javanet.com";>mailto:lfontes@javanet.com</a>]</font>
<br>
<font size=2>Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 5:12 PM</font> <br>
<font size=2>To: Child Maltreatment Researchers</font> <br>
<font size=2>Subject: Re: sibling incest and consent</font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2>Even the seemingly "neat" categories supplied by
Jennifer Guimond below are</font> <br>
<font size=2>messy. I remember a student disclosing to me tearfully after
a university</font> <br>
<font size=2>class on child sexual abuse that her brother--who was less
than 2 years</font> <br>
<font size=2>older--had dragged her off to his room IN FRONT OF THEIR
PARENTS "for a good</font> <br>
<font size=2>tickling" repeatedly over the years. She had tried to
disclose to her</font> <br>
<font size=2>parents who hadn't believed her. he was (and remains) the
preferred son--on</font> <br>
<font size=2>his way to medical school, while she was (and remains) the
troubled younger</font> <br>
<font size=2>sister. She was quite distressed to learn that their
relations would be</font> <br>
<font size=2>considered "consensual" because of their
relatively small age difference.</font> <br>
<font size=2>She did not feel they were consensual at all. I guess there
are many ways in</font> <br>
<font size=2>which a sibling can have power over another--and many would
not be</font> <br>
<font size=2>discovered in a typical quantiative research study.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2>Jennifer Guimond wrote:</font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2>> The consent issue in sibling incest can be pretty fuzzy when the</font> <br>
<font size=2>> siblings in question are close in age and no obvious coercion is</font> <br>
<font size=2>> present. My reading of the literature suggests that sexual contact</font> <br>
<font size=2>> between siblings can be classified in three ways:</font> <br>
<font size=2>></font> <br>
<font size=2>> 1. age-appropriate sexual play and exploration by children of similar</font> <br>
<font size=2>> age.</font> <br>
<font size=2>> 2. sexual abuse in which one child clearly has more power than the</font> <br>
<font size=2>> other due to age, status in the family, physical strength, etc.</font> <br>
<font size=2>> 3. consensual age-inappropriate sexual contact such as an 11-year-old</font> <br>
<font size=2>> and 12-year-old having consensual sexual intercourse.</font> <br>
<font size=2>></font> <br>
<font size=2>> The first two scenarios have been studied, but the third scenario is</font> <br>
<font size=2>> less understood. The third scenario involves sexual contact that is not</font> <br>
<font size=2>> age-appropriate exploration but is also not coercive. When researchers</font> <br>
<font size=2>> study sexual abuse, they use a 5 year age difference between the victim</font> <br>
<font size=2>> and the perpetrator as a criteria for sexual abuse. Thus, many cases of</font> <br>
<font size=2>> sibling incest (as well as incest with cousins) may be overlooked.</font> <br>
<font size=2>></font> <br>
<font size=2>> I find the topic fascinating and I would love to exchange e-mail and</font> <br>
<font size=2>> share references with anyone else on the list.</font> <br>
<font size=2>></font> <br>
<font size=2>> Jennifer Guimond</font> </blockquote></html>
</x-html>From ???@??? Mon Jan 07 11:02:42 2002
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From: "Niki Delson" <niki@delko.net>
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers <CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: sibling incest and consent
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:51:07 -0800
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I was at a conference that used the following as a working definition of
consent. Simple and easy to understand. I liked it well enough to use in Sex
offender treatment.
1. Consent is based on choice.
2. Consent is active, not passive.
3. Consent is possible only when there is equal power
4. Giving in because of fear is not consent.
5. Going along with something because of wanting to fit in with the group,
being deceived or feeling bad is not consent.
6. If you can't say 'no' comfortably, then 'yes' has no meaning.
7. If you are unwilling to accept a 'no', then 'yes' has no meaning.
***************************************************************************
Niki Delson at Delson-Kokish Associates, P.O. Box 476, Trinidad, CA 95570
Clinical and Forensic Evaluations, Consultation & Training
(707)677-3181-voice (707)677-0187-fax
niki@delko.net www.delko.net
***************************************************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@cornell.edu
[mailto:owner-CHILD-MALTREATMENT-RESEARCH-L@cornell.edu]On Behalf Of
John M Price PhD
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 7:13 PM
To: Child Maltreatment Researchers
Subject: Re: sibling incest and consent
On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Jennifer Guimond wrote:
> The consent issue in sibling incest can be pretty fuzzy when the
> siblings in question are close in age and no obvious coercion is
> present. My reading of the literature suggests that sexual contact
> between siblings can be classified in three ways:
Without coercion, why would anyone classify it as abuse? Abberant, aybe,
but abuse? Again, the law is not the be all and end all. In fact, it is
science that should inform the law, not the law restricting what is
studied.
Thinking out loud, one question that has not ben stated, or I have
forgotten, in this research project (I am assuming a quasi-experimental
design), is what is your DV? Also, what N are you seeking to work with?
How are you intending on demonstrate any causality between the IVs and
your DV(s)?
As to the classification issue, why do that? It is a hoard of problems, a
myriad of laws standing in the way of any usable generalizability, and up
front a seeming insult to the subjects' ability to report on their life
events honestly and with insight. Who are we to say it was an evil deed
when they don't?
Perhaps the way out of this is to gather, and report, whether or not such
things as coercion was present? Operationally, coercion can be defined as
the inability to easliy say yes or no without fear of any consequence.
Was there berter? Was violence present or threatened? Did you initiate
the interaction? Did you assent to this interaction? and so forth.
Once it is clear that coercion was present or not, you have a 1/0 value
for it. Maybe add violence as a sepaate IV. In other words, simply ask
about aspects of the experience. There will be some up front time on this
to nail down the questions, of course, but a good survey/interview
requires that.
Other IVs of interest might be the age difference (for one). You
expressed an interest in the degree of relatedness (for a second), here
there would be a set of nominative variables for a nice crosstab analysis.
Age at the event for both parties might be of interest (possibly a third).
Was your subject the person initiating the encounter (possibly the
fourth)?
I do hope you are also intending on contacting the other person(s)
involved. Once your questions are fleshed out, asking both parties would
be likely to reveal some interesting data.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683